Discussion:
Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth now enjoying rapid enlistment from their peers worldwide. Exponential Growth - the nature of TRUTH disseminating.
(too old to reply)
Midex
2008-02-26 21:26:07 UTC
Permalink
http://www.ae911truth.org/

Welcome to Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth!

279 architectural and engineering professionals
and 1028 other supporters including A/E students
have signed the petition demanding of Congress
a truly independent investigation.

Architects, Engineers and all others may sign the petition!

We will post your name after verifying your A/E credentials --
and other info for non-A/E's. This may take a few days.
Thank you for your patience!!

Sign the Petition

Mission Statement:

To research and to disseminate the truth
of the 9/11 "collapses" of all 3 WTC high-rise buildings
to every architect and engineer

Why are Architects and Engineers Re-examining the WTC Collapses?

Architects and Engineers are trained to design buildings that function
well and withstand potentially destructive forces. However, the 3 high-
rise buildings at the World Trade Center which "collapsed" on 9/11
(the Twin Towers plus WTC Building #7) presented us with a body of
evidence (i.e.controlled demolition) that was clearly outside the
scope of our training and experience.

In addition, the shock that hit us on that date from the repeated
attacks and staggering loss of life has limited our ability to
rationally evaluate what really happened. We therefore found ourselves
relying solely upon the judgment of outside "experts"...

read more...
++
2008-02-27 02:54:15 UTC
Permalink
Lessee now. YOu are writing from an anonymatizing netname at an
anonymatizing netservice (gmail) and you want us to give you verifiable
personal info. There are lots of documents associated with the 9/11
Commission and I sat in on some of the meetings in DC early on. Your
petition islate andthere have been experts taking a look at why the
towers went down from many perspectives.
Post by Midex
http://www.ae911truth.org/
Welcome to Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth!
279 architectural and engineering professionals
and 1028 other supporters including A/E students
have signed the petition demanding of Congress
a truly independent investigation.
Architects, Engineers and all others may sign the petition!
We will post your name after verifying your A/E credentials --
and other info for non-A/E's. This may take a few days.
Thank you for your patience!!
Sign the Petition
To research and to disseminate the truth
of the 9/11 "collapses" of all 3 WTC high-rise buildings
to every architect and engineer
Why are Architects and Engineers Re-examining the WTC Collapses?
Architects and Engineers are trained to design buildings that function
well and withstand potentially destructive forces. However, the 3 high-
rise buildings at the World Trade Center which "collapsed" on 9/11
(the Twin Towers plus WTC Building #7) presented us with a body of
evidence (i.e.controlled demolition) that was clearly outside the
scope of our training and experience.
In addition, the shock that hit us on that date from the repeated
attacks and staggering loss of life has limited our ability to
rationally evaluate what really happened. We therefore found ourselves
relying solely upon the judgment of outside "experts"...
read more...
Brian Whatcott
2008-02-27 03:12:52 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 13:26:07 -0800 (PST), Midex
... However, the 3 high-
rise buildings at the World Trade Center which "collapsed" on 9/11
(the Twin Towers plus WTC Building #7) presented us with a body of
evidence (i.e.controlled demolition) that was clearly outside the
scope of our training and experience.
Uh-oh...the conspiracy theorists are coming out of the woodwork
again!

Brian W
Don
2008-02-27 12:56:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Whatcott
On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 13:26:07 -0800 (PST), Midex
... However, the 3 high-
rise buildings at the World Trade Center which "collapsed" on 9/11
(the Twin Towers plus WTC Building #7) presented us with a body of
evidence (i.e.controlled demolition) that was clearly outside the
scope of our training and experience.
Uh-oh...the conspiracy theorists are coming out of the woodwork
again!
And the chickenheads just keep on cluckin'.....
Ralph Hertle
2008-02-27 06:37:05 UTC
Permalink
read more... :


Your evaluation is a complete fabrication of lies and mistruths
regarding the supposed facts and causes of the collapse of the WTC
towers that were [falsely] reported on the web site,

http://www.ae911truth.org/ .

In the sidebar of the web site the list of supposed causes are every one
a lie. The facts are not in evidence for each and every numbered item.

For example, in list [B] items:


"5. Mid-air pulverization of all the 90,000 tons of concrete and steel
decking, filing cabinets & 1000 people – mostly to dust".

All? That's a lie. Not all the concrete was pulverized. You switch
answers by saying, "mostly to dust ".

Mid-air? What possible cause is there that was up in mid air and that
resulted in the pulverization in mid air that you [falsely] claim?

Nor was the steel decking pulverized. That is a lie.

Nor were the filing cabinets pulverized. They may have been dented,
ripped, and crushed beyond recognition, but they were not pulverized.

Nor were the people pulverized "mostly to dust". Human beings are mostly
water. At best when made into a pulverized stuff and combined with
concrete particles the result would be mud, and not dust.




"6. Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic dust clouds".

If you are referring to the billowing white clouds that surrounded the
collapsing floors of the towers, you are right in saying that they were
massive. In the regions of the flames on the floors prior to the
collapse there were no "dust clouds", let alone "pyroclastic dust
clouds". During the plane crash through the building the fireball did
not itself produce dust clouds. That was caused by the fuel carried by
the plane, which was carried mostly right through and out of the
building where most of it burned outside.

The dust clouds were caused by the crushing of the gypsum wallboard that
was used to construct the interior partitions and shaftwalls, acoustic
mineral fiber ceiling tiles, mineral fiber fire insulation on steel
framing and decking from the upper floors, and, also, asbestos fire
insulation on steel framing and decking from the lower floors. The
amount gypsum in terms of weight was far greater than the fire
insulation and tiles. The failures of the floor beam connectors caused
the collapsing of the floor beam and concrete floor decking structures;
and the air between the floors was forced laterally where it carried
nearly everything that wasn't bolted down to the outside walls and
beyond. Most of the dust clouds were not due to wallboard heating; that
was only on the fire floors. Most of the gypsum partitions in the
buildings were not involved in fire, and even then the temperatures for
the wallboard, except in the areas of intense heat, would not have been
that high due to the insulating properties of the material. The grayness
of the white dust was due to shadows and the presence of other
materials, e.g., paper, paint, or steel studs. The white gypsum reflects
most of the heat and only absorbs heat at a slow rate. That's why they
use it.

The dust clouds were not "pyroclastic". The dust of crushed gypsum was
airborne as in a fluidized bed apparatus, and any hot particles would
have been mixed in with surrounding particles. No pyroclastic flows were
reported, and that is the fluid-like flow of hot materials. The dust
clouds were airborne and not primarily fluid.

Your citing of the web site implies a strong advocacy of the near total
amount of lies and falsehoods that were presented.

The site, furthermore, used nearly every one of the main fallacies of
logic in existence.

The main appeal was the attempt to get the reader to accept lies on
faith, that is, without facts and evidence, instead of relying upon the
reasoning mind of the reader to correctly evaluate the facts.

The second appeal was to gain the confidence of the reader and to get
him to join into a consensus regarding the lies presented. The reader
was being conned into accepting the false premises and into joining the
consensus. Ultimately, it is the consensus of feelings, according to
that strongly Platonic way of thinking, that represents the truth, and
not reason, facts and independent judgment by the unfooled individual.

Additionally, the reader is supposed to accept the sob-story as a reason
to accept and further the consensus. That is the fallacy of the appeal
to emotion, for example.

All engineers and architects who supported or endorsed that web site
should be viewed with extreme, and I mean extreme, skepticism due to the
lies and fallacies presented on the site. That evidence of support for
lies and lack of reason is hardly evidence leading to competent
professional practice.

Regarding the website, the reader should be highly skeptical. If someone
wants to learn what happened, ask a licensed professional engineer,
civil engineer, fire protection engineer, or structural engineer. Get
out all the questions you may wish, and test the replies against the
rational answers of the other engineers. Social consensus has nothing
whatsoever to do with the truth. Social consensus is not, itself, a
fact, Get the facts - not the lies.


Ralph Hertle
Post by Midex
http://www.ae911truth.org/
Welcome to Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth!
279 architectural and engineering professionals
and 1028 other supporters including A/E students
have signed the petition demanding of Congress
a truly independent investigation.
Architects, Engineers and all others may sign the petition!
We will post your name after verifying your A/E credentials --
and other info for non-A/E's. This may take a few days.
Thank you for your patience!!
Sign the Petition
To research and to disseminate the truth
of the 9/11 "collapses" of all 3 WTC high-rise buildings
to every architect and engineer
Why are Architects and Engineers Re-examining the WTC Collapses?
Architects and Engineers are trained to design buildings that function
well and withstand potentially destructive forces. However, the 3 high-
rise buildings at the World Trade Center which "collapsed" on 9/11
(the Twin Towers plus WTC Building #7) presented us with a body of
evidence (i.e.controlled demolition) that was clearly outside the
scope of our training and experience.
In addition, the shock that hit us on that date from the repeated
attacks and staggering loss of life has limited our ability to
rationally evaluate what really happened. We therefore found ourselves
relying solely upon the judgment of outside "experts"...
read more...
EDS
2008-02-27 15:33:43 UTC
Permalink
Your evaluation is a complete fabrication of lies and mistruths regarding
the supposed facts and causes of the collapse of the WTC towers that were
[falsely] reported on the web site,
http://www.ae911truth.org/ .
In the sidebar of the web site the list of supposed causes are every one a
lie. The facts are not in evidence for each and every numbered item.
"5. Mid-air pulverization of all the 90,000 tons of concrete and steel
decking, filing cabinets & 1000 people – mostly to dust".
All? That's a lie. Not all the concrete was pulverized. You switch answers
by saying, "mostly to dust ".
Mid-air? What possible cause is there that was up in mid air and that
resulted in the pulverization in mid air that you [falsely] claim?
Nor was the steel decking pulverized. That is a lie.
Nor were the filing cabinets pulverized. They may have been dented,
ripped, and crushed beyond recognition, but they were not pulverized.
Nor were the people pulverized "mostly to dust". Human beings are mostly
water. At best when made into a pulverized stuff and combined with
concrete particles the result would be mud, and not dust.
"6. Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic dust clouds".
If you are referring to the billowing white clouds that surrounded the
collapsing floors of the towers, you are right in saying that they were
massive. In the regions of the flames on the floors prior to the collapse
there were no "dust clouds", let alone "pyroclastic dust clouds". During
the plane crash through the building the fireball did not itself produce
dust clouds. That was caused by the fuel carried by the plane, which was
carried mostly right through and out of the building where most of it
burned outside.
The dust clouds were caused by the crushing of the gypsum wallboard that
was used to construct the interior partitions and shaftwalls, acoustic
mineral fiber ceiling tiles, mineral fiber fire insulation on steel
framing and decking from the upper floors, and, also, asbestos fire
insulation on steel framing and decking from the lower floors. The amount
gypsum in terms of weight was far greater than the fire insulation and
tiles. The failures of the floor beam connectors caused the collapsing of
the floor beam and concrete floor decking structures; and the air between
the floors was forced laterally where it carried nearly everything that
wasn't bolted down to the outside walls and beyond. Most of the dust
clouds were not due to wallboard heating; that was only on the fire
floors. Most of the gypsum partitions in the buildings were not involved
in fire, and even then the temperatures for the wallboard, except in the
areas of intense heat, would not have been that high due to the insulating
properties of the material. The grayness of the white dust was due to
shadows and the presence of other materials, e.g., paper, paint, or steel
studs. The white gypsum reflects most of the heat and only absorbs heat at
a slow rate. That's why they use it.
The dust clouds were not "pyroclastic". The dust of crushed gypsum was
airborne as in a fluidized bed apparatus, and any hot particles would have
been mixed in with surrounding particles. No pyroclastic flows were
reported, and that is the fluid-like flow of hot materials. The dust
clouds were airborne and not primarily fluid.
Your citing of the web site implies a strong advocacy of the near total
amount of lies and falsehoods that were presented.
The site, furthermore, used nearly every one of the main fallacies of
logic in existence.
The main appeal was the attempt to get the reader to accept lies on faith,
that is, without facts and evidence, instead of relying upon the reasoning
mind of the reader to correctly evaluate the facts.
The second appeal was to gain the confidence of the reader and to get him
to join into a consensus regarding the lies presented. The reader was
being conned into accepting the false premises and into joining the
consensus. Ultimately, it is the consensus of feelings, according to that
strongly Platonic way of thinking, that represents the truth, and not
reason, facts and independent judgment by the unfooled individual.
Additionally, the reader is supposed to accept the sob-story as a reason
to accept and further the consensus. That is the fallacy of the appeal to
emotion, for example.
All engineers and architects who supported or endorsed that web site
should be viewed with extreme, and I mean extreme, skepticism due to the
lies and fallacies presented on the site. That evidence of support for
lies and lack of reason is hardly evidence leading to competent
professional practice.
Regarding the website, the reader should be highly skeptical. If someone
wants to learn what happened, ask a licensed professional engineer, civil
engineer, fire protection engineer, or structural engineer. Get out all
the questions you may wish, and test the replies against the rational
answers of the other engineers. Social consensus has nothing whatsoever to
do with the truth. Social consensus is not, itself, a fact, Get the
facts - not the lies.
Ralph Hertle
A good reply, but they prefer to believe their gurus. What should be further
investigated is why the government missed the signs that this was about to
happen. Of course nothing but those planes brought down the three towers as
a simple forensic review shows. Shortly after the 2nd plane hit, as we were
watching the TV, I told my wife that the buildings would fall. I knew enough
about steel to understand its reaction to reletively mild heating.
EDS
Post by Midex
http://www.ae911truth.org/
Welcome to Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth!
279 architectural and engineering professionals
and 1028 other supporters including A/E students
have signed the petition demanding of Congress
a truly independent investigation.
Architects, Engineers and all others may sign the petition!
We will post your name after verifying your A/E credentials --
and other info for non-A/E's. This may take a few days.
Thank you for your patience!!
Sign the Petition
To research and to disseminate the truth
of the 9/11 "collapses" of all 3 WTC high-rise buildings
to every architect and engineer
Why are Architects and Engineers Re-examining the WTC Collapses?
Architects and Engineers are trained to design buildings that function
well and withstand potentially destructive forces. However, the 3 high-
rise buildings at the World Trade Center which "collapsed" on 9/11
(the Twin Towers plus WTC Building #7) presented us with a body of
evidence (i.e.controlled demolition) that was clearly outside the
scope of our training and experience.
In addition, the shock that hit us on that date from the repeated
attacks and staggering loss of life has limited our ability to
rationally evaluate what really happened. We therefore found ourselves
relying solely upon the judgment of outside "experts"...
read more...
Don
2008-02-27 15:58:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by EDS
Your evaluation is a complete fabrication of lies and mistruths regarding
the supposed facts and causes of the collapse of the WTC towers that were
[falsely] reported on the web site,
http://www.ae911truth.org/ .
In the sidebar of the web site the list of supposed causes are every one
a lie. The facts are not in evidence for each and every numbered item.
"5. Mid-air pulverization of all the 90,000 tons of concrete and steel
decking, filing cabinets & 1000 people - mostly to dust".
All? That's a lie. Not all the concrete was pulverized. You switch
answers by saying, "mostly to dust ".
Mid-air? What possible cause is there that was up in mid air and that
resulted in the pulverization in mid air that you [falsely] claim?
Nor was the steel decking pulverized. That is a lie.
Nor were the filing cabinets pulverized. They may have been dented,
ripped, and crushed beyond recognition, but they were not pulverized.
Nor were the people pulverized "mostly to dust". Human beings are mostly
water. At best when made into a pulverized stuff and combined with
concrete particles the result would be mud, and not dust.
"6. Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic dust clouds".
If you are referring to the billowing white clouds that surrounded the
collapsing floors of the towers, you are right in saying that they were
massive. In the regions of the flames on the floors prior to the collapse
there were no "dust clouds", let alone "pyroclastic dust clouds". During
the plane crash through the building the fireball did not itself produce
dust clouds. That was caused by the fuel carried by the plane, which was
carried mostly right through and out of the building where most of it
burned outside.
The dust clouds were caused by the crushing of the gypsum wallboard that
was used to construct the interior partitions and shaftwalls, acoustic
mineral fiber ceiling tiles, mineral fiber fire insulation on steel
framing and decking from the upper floors, and, also, asbestos fire
insulation on steel framing and decking from the lower floors. The amount
gypsum in terms of weight was far greater than the fire insulation and
tiles. The failures of the floor beam connectors caused the collapsing of
the floor beam and concrete floor decking structures; and the air between
the floors was forced laterally where it carried nearly everything that
wasn't bolted down to the outside walls and beyond. Most of the dust
clouds were not due to wallboard heating; that was only on the fire
floors. Most of the gypsum partitions in the buildings were not involved
in fire, and even then the temperatures for the wallboard, except in the
areas of intense heat, would not have been that high due to the
insulating properties of the material. The grayness of the white dust was
due to shadows and the presence of other materials, e.g., paper, paint,
or steel studs. The white gypsum reflects most of the heat and only
absorbs heat at a slow rate. That's why they use it.
The dust clouds were not "pyroclastic". The dust of crushed gypsum was
airborne as in a fluidized bed apparatus, and any hot particles would
have been mixed in with surrounding particles. No pyroclastic flows were
reported, and that is the fluid-like flow of hot materials. The dust
clouds were airborne and not primarily fluid.
Your citing of the web site implies a strong advocacy of the near total
amount of lies and falsehoods that were presented.
The site, furthermore, used nearly every one of the main fallacies of
logic in existence.
The main appeal was the attempt to get the reader to accept lies on
faith, that is, without facts and evidence, instead of relying upon the
reasoning mind of the reader to correctly evaluate the facts.
The second appeal was to gain the confidence of the reader and to get him
to join into a consensus regarding the lies presented. The reader was
being conned into accepting the false premises and into joining the
consensus. Ultimately, it is the consensus of feelings, according to that
strongly Platonic way of thinking, that represents the truth, and not
reason, facts and independent judgment by the unfooled individual.
Additionally, the reader is supposed to accept the sob-story as a reason
to accept and further the consensus. That is the fallacy of the appeal to
emotion, for example.
All engineers and architects who supported or endorsed that web site
should be viewed with extreme, and I mean extreme, skepticism due to the
lies and fallacies presented on the site. That evidence of support for
lies and lack of reason is hardly evidence leading to competent
professional practice.
Regarding the website, the reader should be highly skeptical. If someone
wants to learn what happened, ask a licensed professional engineer, civil
engineer, fire protection engineer, or structural engineer. Get out all
the questions you may wish, and test the replies against the rational
answers of the other engineers. Social consensus has nothing whatsoever
to do with the truth. Social consensus is not, itself, a fact, Get the
facts - not the lies.
Ralph Hertle
A good reply, but they prefer to believe their gurus. What should be
further investigated is why the government missed the signs that this was
about to happen.
Precisely.
THAT is the primary function of the gov't, protection, but there it is
bigger than stuttgart, their utter failure to do so.
FWIW, I've seen all kinds of mention that they DID know about this, and were
possibly even complicent in the whole thing.
Amazingly, the worst *crime* on US soil and no one has been *hung*.
Yet they have no qualms about hanging people in foreign lands.
Their own actions incriminate them.

Hey look, *somebody* killed a president and to this day it has not been
proven that it wasn't gov't behind all of it.
And I don't care one whit about disproving negatives.
AFAIC anything is possible these days.


Of course nothing but those planes brought down the three towers as
Post by EDS
a simple forensic review shows. Shortly after the 2nd plane hit, as we
were watching the TV, I told my wife that the buildings would fall. I knew
enough about steel to understand its reaction to reletively mild heating.
Between all the stuff thats out there about the WTC, the PA field and the
Pentagon, I'm not convinced any of it is *real*, at least not the current
media portrayal of it.
++
2008-02-27 18:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by EDS
A good reply, but they prefer to believe their gurus. What should be further
investigated is why the government missed the signs that this was about to
happen. Of course nothing but those planes brought down the three towers as
a simple forensic review shows. Shortly after the 2nd plane hit, as we were
watching the TV, I told my wife that the buildings would fall. I knew enough
about steel to understand its reaction to reletively mild heating.
EDS
Yep, as the 9/11 commission testimony brought out, and was common sense
anyway, a building that was attacked unsuccessfully before and was
threatened with attack should have been thought of as vulnerable to
attack. It was only a matter of considering various scenarios for
taking the building down through direct hit, fire, explosion or
implosion. These were mostly lacking.
gruhn
2008-02-28 03:34:23 UTC
Permalink
 Welcome to Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth!
Well, at least the Engineers part makes sense.
and   1028  other supporters including A/E students
What kind of supporters? Isn't it a lie to include them under that
header? How many of the "others" are A/E students, therefore kind of
relevant and only half a lie?
have signed the petition demanding of Congress
a truly independent investigation.
If you want something "truly independent" you don't petition
_Congress_ for it. This says something about the people who signed it.
Architects, Engineers and all others may sign the petition!
"Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth" is a lie. Not even 30%. How
do you expect to be taken seriously?

How do you claim "exponential growth" with only 279 valid signatories?

"But it says right there, everybody is welcome to sign. EVERYBODY is
valid." How do you expect to be taken seriously?
We will post your name after verifying your A/E credentials --
and other info for non-A/E's. This may take a few days.
Sweet way to build a mailing list worth more per name than most.
To research and to disseminate the truth
I thought the mission was to demand government do the impossible.
of the 9/11 "collapses" of all 3 WTC high-rise buildings
to every architect and engineer
Overlooking the poorly constructed sentence I still have to ask why
don't you want to disseminate the truth to people other than A/E
professionals? Don't they deserve the truth? Can they handle the
truth? Why are A/E professionals somehow special, more deserving of
the truth?
Why are Architects and Engineers Re-examining the WTC Collapses?
I thought they weren't and Congress was supposed to. Independently.

Well, maybe A/Es are doing it. But then why would you need to demand
of Congress that A/Es do it. All Congress could do would be to pass a
law that says "Um, well, there you go. Um."
Architects and Engineers are trained to design buildings that function
well and withstand potentially destructive forces. However, the 3 high-
rise buildings at the World Trade Center which "collapsed" on 9/11
(the Twin Towers plus WTC Building #7) presented us with a body of
evidence (i.e.controlled demolition) that was clearly outside the
scope of our training and experience.
I know what you are trying to say, but you did not succede.

Isn't controlled demolition clearly inside the scope of "our" training
and experience?
attacks and staggering loss of life has limited our ability to
rationally evaluate what really happened.
Well then, maybe Congress is the correct body after all. I mean, who
else could be an independent government body specializing in
irrationality?

You want to evaluate what really happened or discover what really
happened?

Or have you actually done both to your own (all be it irrational)
satisfaction?
[deleted due to lack of support]
read more...
Can't. You lose.
z***@netscape.net
2008-03-15 06:50:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Midex
http://www.ae911truth.org/
 Welcome to Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth!
  279  architectural and engineering professionals
and   1028  other supporters including A/E students
have signed the petition demanding of Congress
a truly independent investigation.
Architects, Engineers and all others may sign the petition!
We will post your name after verifying your A/E credentials --
and other info for non-A/E's. This may take a few days.
Thank you for your patience!!
Sign the Petition
To research and to disseminate the truth
of the 9/11 "collapses" of all 3 WTC high-rise buildings
to every architect and engineer
Why are Architects and Engineers Re-examining the WTC Collapses?
Well, many of us can't tell you why archtects are re-examining the
evidence, but we can tell you why many engineers are re-examing the
evidence. And that's because there are quite obviously numerous
idiots in the press and governemnt, who wouldn't know the
difference
between a design schematic, evidence, a proof-of-purchase, a TV
Tower, an
evelator, a pilon, a pile, a truss, a trust, a strut, a spring, and
a summer.
Post by Midex
Architects and Engineers are trained to design buildings that function
well and withstand potentially destructive forces. However, the 3 high-
rise buildings at the World Trade Center which "collapsed" on 9/11
(the Twin Towers plus WTC Building #7) presented us with a body of
evidence (i.e.controlled demolition) that was clearly outside the
scope of our training and experience.
In addition, the shock that hit us on that date from the repeated
attacks and staggering loss of life has limited our ability to
rationally evaluate what really happened. We therefore found ourselves
relying solely upon the judgment of outside "experts"...
read more...
Loading...